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www.undertowsoftware.com • View topic - How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version
Page 1 of 1

How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:57 pm
by Fred.Holmer
My computer died and I had to buy a new laptop. I have the Navigator 2012 upgrade, but I can't install it on this new system, because it's looking for the 2011 version on the system. Problem is I can't find my 2011 disk, only the 2012 upgrade disk. I figured I'd buy a full version of the program, possibly at a discount, but I called undertow and was told that they are no longer allowed to sell the program. So, now I am stuck :-(

It irks me because I paid my good money to purchase the upgrade which is now useless to me. I paid for it and I should be able to install it. I don't think that's the right way for the company to treat its customers. I called Trailer Life, as well and there is nothing they can do for me, either. I can't believe it!

Anyway, does anyone know of a way that I can install the 2012 version without the 2011 version being installed on the system?

Please!!!!

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:40 pm
by Dimitry
Unfortunately, I think you may be out of luck. As I understand it, the 2012 version is not a full copy and it needs some of the pieces that are part of the 2011 version. So, if the 2011 is not there, there is no way to have a complete 2012 version. Your best bet is to look again for your 2011 disk and install that first.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:26 am
by Fred.Holmer
As I said in my original post, I cannot find the original disk for the 2011 version. I can't believe that they sold me a product that I cannot install any longer. What am I supposed to do now? This is a shoddy way of run a business, really.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:25 am
by mrhagen
Fred, if I remember correctly, when the program was available, right on the order page there was some red text that said the update version would NOT work if it didn't detect the 2011 version on the target computer.

Complaining now that you can't install it because you lost your 2011 copy is like seeing a product that clearly says "In will only work on Windows 8", ordering the program, using it with Windows 8, without any problems and 6 months later complaining that the company is shoddy because now the program will not run on your other computer running Windows XP.

Please :-(

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2013 10:26 am
by Glenn.Tossi
mrhagen, although I don't disagree with your overall sentiment, you are being a bit too harsh. The OP lost his installation disk, wants to re-install the program and he is upset that there is no way for him to do so. That's understandable!

You are right, there were ample notices on the product, the order form, the invoice (at least the one that I received), etc., that the updated needs an installed tldcn2011 version, but seriously, "who reads such notices"? I for one don't. When I get a new product, I am so eager to install it and get it going, not to read all the notices that might be associated with it :-)

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:46 pm
by artmart
This would happen if you bought the Windows upgrade, too and you couldn't find the original Windows disk.

Here's what you are asking of a company:

1. Don't offer an upgrade path to anything. Always only offer the full version at the higher price that includes everything you need because customers aren't always responsible and keep track of their stuff.
2. Offer an upgrade path, but you MUST remind the customer to keep track of their original version or send it to the company for safe-keeping because the customer CAN be careless and lose it and that's the COMPANY'S fault.
3. Make sure to remind the customer to keep things organized and don't lose things so that a recovery can occur as if customer's do this anyway from others who don't follow recommendations to keep things safe, organized or backed up.
4. Call it an upgrade but make sure it acts like the full version because a disorganized customer can lose things and then it's the company's responsibility to get the customer back up when they don't do what they should be doing.
5. I could go on, but...

Believe it or not, I'm having fun with this because I have been there. But do this once and you learn to do what's recommended. Do it twice and you're hopeless. Nothing much to understand... YOU screwed up, bad! Glenn.Tossi, this is the price for being too eager!

I now put the upgrade WITH the original so that I know they go hand in hand for recovery purposes. If you don't do this you just might find yourself posting in a public forum about your DOH! moment for everyone to feel bad for you about but there's nothing to understand other than YOU had a DOH! moment.

Unfortunately, you got what you paid for. If you know you aren't interested in keeping track of these things or you want to be eager and screw something up, then pay the extra for the full version then hope you don't lose that either. Otherwise it's your responsibility as things don't go as you want. I for one am not willing to pay a higher price for someone else's carelessness as that company must incur additional costs to support it.

Sorry, I am not more sensitive, but there must be a point where we pay for our own lack of planning or action when what to do has been documented from the onset. This issue has been around forever and it can't be fixed. I'll paraphrase, "Only YOU can prevent losing software".

In the meantime, I'll thank Undertow to stay out of my messy room or my desk and not clean up after me.

:oops:

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:11 pm
by Fred.Holmer
Art, aren't you being a bit harsh? What would it cost the company to provide everyone with a full version, instead of an upgrade version which is not full? Not only that, but nowadays, with the low prices on memories and storage, why couldn't the company at least make the base version of the program available on-line, to deal with situations like mine? And what if the older (tldcn2011) disk got scratched, or something? It's not that I didn't obtain the program legally, or anything, but now I would have the totally worthless upgrade rtn2012 disk that I couldn't install! How is that fair, really?

I don't mind paying for software that I use, but really hate paying for software that's useless!

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:27 pm
by mrhagen
Fred, I have no vested interest in the company, or in their pricing, or their upgrade policies, etc., but I have to agree with Art on this one. At some point, we need to take responsibility of our actions and our decisions. It is our responsibility to keep what we purchase in a safe place, not the company's responsibility. Art, you said it a lot better than I could. I agree with you 100%, we need to take care of our stuff and not always expect someone else to take care of it for us!

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:18 am
by Kevin_T
Fred.Holmer wrote:Art, aren't you being a bit harsh? What would it cost the company to provide everyone with a full version, instead of an upgrade version which is not full? Not only that, but nowadays, with the low prices on memories and storage, why couldn't the company at least make the base version of the program available on-line, to deal with situations like mine? And what if the older (tldcn2011) disk got scratched, or something? It's not that I didn't obtain the program legally, or anything, but now I would have the totally worthless upgrade rtn2012 disk that I couldn't install! How is that fair, really?

I don't mind paying for software that I use, but really hate paying for software that's useless!

I bet next time you'll opt for the full product :-) Seriously, though, I feel for your predicament, but that was your choice. Of course, how could you have predicted that you'd lose the 2011 version, but these things happen.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:09 am
by Glenn.Tossi
Oh, come on you guys. Stop being so righteous, will you? I still think that undertow should do good by this user and provide him with a copy of the software they can use. We all lose and misplace things. It won't kill the company to take care of this customer. That's what customer support is all about.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:54 pm
by mrhagen
Undertow being nice and doing something for this user - because they want to do that, is a far cry from undertow being obligated to do it, which is what the original poster was whining about. I don't know what criteria undertow uses to make such decisions and if they can and decide they can help this user in some way, that's great. But, the user is NOT entitled to it, and should not be demanding it, like he appeared to do in his original message!

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:20 am
by JayWild
mrhagen wrote:Undertow being nice and doing something for this user - because they want to do that, is a far cry from undertow being obligated to do it, which is what the original poster was whining about. I don't know what criteria undertow uses to make such decisions and if they can and decide they can help this user in some way, that's great. But, the user is NOT entitled to it, and should not be demanding it, like he appeared to do in his original message!

Agree completely with both you and Art. It's one thing if the company wants and can do it, and another to feel entitled to it. But, we are leaving in the age of entitlement :-(

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 3:27 pm
by DK13
Glenn.Tossi wrote:Oh, come on you guys. Stop being so righteous, will you? I still think that undertow should do good by this user and provide him with a copy of the software they can use. We all lose and misplace things. It won't kill the company to take care of this customer. That's what customer support is all about.


Just out of curiosity, what other products have you lost that a company has replaced for free? I lost my winter jacket should the store be obligated to replace it for me? Anyway, do we even know that Undertow will NOT replace the lost program? Has anybody asked them?

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:30 pm
by Fred.Holmer
No, I don't think you should get your jacket replaced, don't be a smart-Alec. one has nothing to do with the other. There is a cost associated with producing a new jacket, there is zero cost in producing an additional copy of the software.

Yes, I did call undertow last week. The person on the phone mumbled something about not being able to sell full copies because the agreement with Trailer Life ended, but said they might be able to get me a replacement full copy (if they had any left), but I had to pay 9.99 to cover s&h. Of course, I said no thank you! I will not be blackmailed in spending more money for a product I already paid for.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:19 pm
by xavier
Fred, I'm usually the one whining about software companies - not just undertow. But, I think you are way out of line on this one. I have to agree with Art and all the others that have tried to explain it to you. You ordered the upgrade - you got the upgrade. There was ample notification that the upgrade will NOT install unless the 2011 version is installed on that system. If you lost, misplaced, destroyed the 2011 version and you can't get your system to the condition "required" for the upgrade to work, it's your problem and nobody else's.

And, if undertow offered to replace your upgrade with a full version copy for $9.99 to handle the cost of disk, mailing, handling, etc. and you think that's not fair, then I don't know what to say.

I can tell you that if I was undertow, I would refuse to even sell you the product even for the full price at this point, because a customer like you would be nothing but trouble for them! However, lucky for you, I am not them and I can't influence their decision.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:13 am
by Glenn.Tossi
Well, we could go on and on, but suffice it to say that I totally disagree with most of you here and still think that undertow is not really providing good "customer service" on this matter.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:59 pm
by celabinc
Fred.Holmer wrote:No, I don't think you should get your jacket replaced, don't be a smart-Alec. one has nothing to do with the other. There is a cost associated with producing a new jacket, there is zero cost in producing an additional copy of the software.

I see, so there is no cost associated with it and all software should be free, right :-) Are you serious? I worked for a software company for years and I can tell you that there are many person-years worth of effort that goes into developing and then maintaining a piece of software, and that costs big money.

Then, companies have to make some of that money back by charging $20, or $50 or whatever each customer (well in our case it was more like $200). Hopefully, enough customers buy the program and they can make back their investment - sometimes that doesn't happen. There is a cost (development, data acquisition, running the company, etc.) that has to be amortized over all copies of the product that are being sold, it's not just the cost of the disk. To use the jacket example, it's like saying that the cost of the jacket to the user should be the cost of the material, plus any cost of labor to produce that one jacket. And, who is going to pay, for example, for the machinery the manufactures had to purchase to make the production of the jacket possible? who is going to pay for the fees the manufacture had to pay the designers they hired to design that jacket? How about the advertising? Or, is the manufacturer supposed to pay for all that out of his pocket, because he is a nice guy and just charge you the cost of the material for that one jacket you buy?

Sorry I get like this, but I heard the same things from customers for too many years. There is this notion that all software should be somehow free. So, if all software was free, how would those involved in developing it, producing it, etc. make a living? There is no such thing as free lunch!!

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:28 pm
by Don Bryer
Rare moment :-) I have to agree with Art, Xavier and the other posters here. The OP got exactly what he decided he wanted to purchase and undertow is not obligated to provide anything else to him! It's not undertow's responsibility to babysit their users so they don't lose their toys!

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:07 am
by victra
Don Bryer wrote:The OP got exactly what he decided he wanted to purchase and undertow is not obligated to provide anything else to him! It's not undertow's responsibility to babysit their users so they don't lose their toys!

Count me in that column, too. This notion of entitlement is foreign to me.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:47 am
by TMayers
victra wrote:
Don Bryer wrote:The OP got exactly what he decided he wanted to purchase and undertow is not obligated to provide anything else to him! It's not undertow's responsibility to babysit their users so they don't lose their toys!

Count me in that column, too. This notion of entitlement is foreign to me.

Ditto! The user got what he paid for. If he wants something different he has to pay for it, like everyone else. It's not like he didn't know that without the 2011 one he couldn't install the 2012 version. I guess it's just easier to always blame someone else ;-)

I think upgrades should include the full product and I hope undertow decides to do that in the future, even if we have to pay a little more, because I don't want to have to install an old version and then the upgrade, if I move to a different system, but that's a different matter. That's (possibly) for the future. At this point, that's how their upgrade was distributed, it was explained in detail on their web site and on the order form and on their invoice, so the OP has no grounds to complain.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:58 am
by MichaelG
artmart wrote:This would happen if you bought the Windows upgrade, too and you couldn't find the original Windows disk.

Here's what you are asking of a company:

1. Don't offer an upgrade path to anything. Always only offer the full version at the higher price that includes everything you need because customers aren't always responsible and keep track of their stuff.

Art, funny you should say that. In prior years, when the program was only available from Trailer Life, there was NO upgrade! You had to pay full price and buy the program again each year! Even in the 2012 version, TL didn't have an upgrade if you bought directly from them. I and many other users complained over the years that TL made us pay full price each year. Now that this year undertow finally had an upgrade path and we saved $10, we complain again (well, some of us complain again).

We users are a weird bunch of folk :-)

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:24 pm
by artmart
Michael, what-you-mean we... that's exactly what I was trying to get at.

First, some customers whine they don't want to pay full price for a product, then when the company obliges and comes up with an upgrade that costs less because the contents are less, then that same "cheapskate" expects the company to cover the buyer's negligence for another product you should have bought because you couldn't take care of your stuff? If a company wants to do something like this for you then consider yourself lucky. Most companies, especially ones that offer cheaper upgrades aren't gonna do that, period. Quit your bellyaching. Live by the decisions YOU make. Don't make someone else like me pay more for a product because I have to cover the company's cost for someone else's carelessness.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:12 pm
by MichaelG
artmart wrote:Michael, what-you-mean we... that's exactly what I was trying to get at.

Sorry, Art. I was agreeing with you. I just wasn't able to get my point across clearly.

Re: How to re-install 2012 without 2011 version

PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:43 am
by artmart
I know michaelg, I was more than agreeing with you. My first paragraph "Michael, what-you-mean we, was referring to your "We users are a weird bunch of folk" comment. I agree with everything else. Sorry you missed my joke. My old humor was not communicated correctly.